yes, we're going to lose, 7, 12 billion dollars on gm. charlie, probably make like 46 billion on aig and the other big things. >> you cannot-- >> first off, you can't measure moral hazard. number one, you can't measure the lines that people have their money-- they don't want to roll the dice in the stock market and they're in fixed income accounts, they lose money. >> i agree with charles, it's a policy conversation and he and i disagree on it. we did the right thing not letting the industry go down in a crisis. i mean. >> do you know what you're saying here? >> listen, there's a notion out there that big businesses are protected and when that happens, they do stupid things and that's one of the problems. listen, tarp and all that have-- >> and don't tell me that we made money. >> neil: and about the precedent, to your point, charles, whatever the good, i'm just worried about the present because i know if it it happens again, it probably will, we'll do it again with much bigger numbers. >> of course, charlie hit the nail on the head. in o